
I’m a nail biter and drink my coffee sans foam art, but otherwise this is totally me.
I made a rash decision yesterday to comment on a Desiring God post by John Piper about the decline of male headship theology. He was saying that “Christlike headship will endure because it is true to God’s word,” and in explaining its decline, he said that those who are becoming egalitarians are being influenced by secularism or are bitter.
This was my comment:
I can tell you why I became an egalitarian, if you are really curious. I grew up Conservative Baptist, went to an Evangelical college, went to a reformed seminary, maintaining my complementarian worldview/interpretive lens. Along the way I met some egalitarians who deeply loved God, had beautiful marriages, and held to the Bible’s authority with a high view of Scripture. Not like I had been taught egalitarians were like. Then one day, as a stay-at-home homeschooling mom, I was sitting in a Bible study and heard God say loud and clear to me: “I want you to co-pastor with your husband.” I was not reading “liberal” theologians, I had little “secular” influence in my life, and I was not bitter about my role. I am naturally a submissive, quiet person. So I started studying the issue of women in ministry and was convinced by egalitarian interpretations. I think it is helpful to talk to actual egalitarians about why they believe what they believe rather than speculating and painting them as secular or bitter. The Bible tells us to consider others better than ourselves, so in the least, we can give others the benefit of the doubt rather than mischaracterizing their motivations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of our complementarianism/egalitarianism, so let us love one another.
I regretted this comment pretty quickly, after receiving the first two comments:
Ken Edwards: Anytime someone says they’ve heard from the Lord I always hope they’ll compare what they’ve heard with scripture. If the two don’t line up one might be wise to question who was speaking.
Annie Carder: Your definition of “submissive” is off. There’s your problem.
I sat on these comments for an hour, telling myself, “You don’t have to reply. You can walk away,” then I replied,
I realize I posted in complementarian territory, and we all don’t know each other from Adam. Just wanted to say that the overall premise of the argument that egalitarians are influenced by secularism or bitterness is 1) unloving, 2) counter to my experience knowing many egalitarians, 3) untrue of my own change to egalitarianism. Just wanted to make the suggestion that y’all talk to egalitarians as brothers and sisters in Christ rather than maligning them and never engaging with their actual arguments.
At what point do you walk away? I should have trusted my instinct. I was in an unsafe place. When complementarians comment on posts on The Beautiful Kingdom Warriors FB page, I always treat them with respect, kindness, and hospitality. It is rare that I am treated well on complementarian playgrounds. They assume that I am worldly and bitter, so they gift me with “tough love.” Like this man who emerged next…
Steve Hulbert: But then you’re not engaging with what’s being said to you…
I took the bait.
To Ken Edwards: I definitely did. Had to read egalitarian theologians and pastors to understand their interpretation of headship, creation order, women in ministry, etc. Have been taught the complementarian perspective all my life and it always seemed clear and right to me, so I was shocked by the idea of co-pastoring. Also have never experienced anything like that before or since. The next day, someone recommended the book “How I Changed My Mind About Women in Leadership” and this article by Dr. Walt Kaiser, and I haven’t really stopped reading since then (five or six years). http://www.walterckaiserjr.com/women.html
To Annie Carder: Didn’t realize I had defined submission in my original post. Was just trying to say that submitting to my husband as the head of the family was not hard nor was it making me bitter or power hungry. I find that egalitarians take submission further, with mutual submission.
To Steve Hulbert: I was regretting my post, feeling gun-shy about being the odd one out in this comment thread.
I appreciate everyone’s kindness. 
Then Steve started in. He stuck around until he told me to get lost, pretty much. But here’s how he began:
Steve Hulbert: I’m reading that link and it’s pretty much what I would have expected: poring over many small details and blaming mistranslation for what the text appears to say. It doesn’t make any sense in the context of Corinthians 11 to say that the sign of authority is a sign of the woman’s power when the preceding verse has said that woman was created for man and not vice versa, and earlier that the man is the head of woman. I’m no expert to interpret that passage but I notice he’s only referred to one verse and nothing about the rest of the context.
To which I replied,
Thanks for reading the article! I hate debating but can send links at light speed if anyone ever wants more info.
Another egalitarian resource is newlife.id.au. Here’s her post on 1 Corinthians 11: http://newlife.id.au/…/the-chiasm-in-1-corinthians-11…/
Then got this gem, which I ignored:
Enoque Júnio Calado: So did Mohamed, so did John Smith. All have claimed they heard the voice of God and created false religions. No further revelation apart from the bible should be made into doctrine, and those who plainly deny the scriptures should be anathema.
Sola Scriptura
And this,
Jason Warner: Such a facinating discussion. As I see it…evangelical comps and evangelical egalitarians essentially function in the same way. Russel Moore has commented on this as well – regarding the inconsistency of comps on paper and in function – that comps want to check the comp box. Piper and Grudem created the comp concept, as we know it now, within the last 30 years. But even those within the Reformed camp do not agree on what it actually means or how far to take the concept (home, church, work, Trinity, etc.). Last year’s ESS uproar is an example of the “infighting.”
I liked that one. Then got this,
Joye Stewart: Found this on the internet..
The place to begin in this, as in other biblical questions, is to ask, “What does the Bible say?” Even a cursory reading of the pertinent texts reveals three important observations: 1) there were no known women pastors in New Testament times; 2) none of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for women pastors; and 3) some texts on church order explicitly forbid women to occupy that role. Paul, in 1 Tim. 2:12, states, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man” (NIV) . This verse is introduced by a statement that women should learn “in silence,” and it is followed by the statement that “she must be silent.” The word silence means being possessed by a calmness of spirit and peaceful disposition. It is set as the opposite to “teaching” and “having authority over a man.” Paul does not expect that women will not or can not learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He states that they cannot teach or have authority over men. Thus, they cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men.
If the scripture says women are not to teach or have authority over men, then I would follow the scripture over the voices in my head.
I didn’t have to sit around deciding whether or not to reply to this comment. Outright misinformation needs correction, for the sake of silent observers. I said,
In reply to point 1, there are many known women in ministry in the New Testament, even in relation to men. Junia, Lydia, Peter’s daughters, Phoebe, etc. https://godswordtowomen.org/pastors.htm
Per point 2, many instructions have been interpreted with male pronouns where the original text was inclusive. The Holy Spirit descended on men and women at Pentecost, the gifts of the Spirit are never gender specific. It was prophesied that “your sons and daughters will prophecy” and that has come to pass.
Per point 3, I believe the egalitarian interpretations of those passages are compelling and align more with the overall message of Scripture – men and women are both fully created in the image of God and were both given dominion and authority by God. Both men and women are told to submit to one another and to serve and make disciples. The first missionary was a woman (the Samaritan woman at the well evangelized her whole city), and the first person to preach the resurrected Christ was Mary.
Jason Warner commented again, and he seems to be a super nice complementarian. Very kind and gracious.
Like this:
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It’s Okay to Walk Away
I’m a nail biter and drink my coffee sans foam art, but otherwise this is totally me.
I made a rash decision yesterday to comment on a Desiring God post by John Piper about the decline of male headship theology. He was saying that “Christlike headship will endure because it is true to God’s word,” and in explaining its decline, he said that those who are becoming egalitarians are being influenced by secularism or are bitter.
This was my comment:
I regretted this comment pretty quickly, after receiving the first two comments:
I sat on these comments for an hour, telling myself, “You don’t have to reply. You can walk away,” then I replied,
At what point do you walk away? I should have trusted my instinct. I was in an unsafe place. When complementarians comment on posts on The Beautiful Kingdom Warriors FB page, I always treat them with respect, kindness, and hospitality. It is rare that I am treated well on complementarian playgrounds. They assume that I am worldly and bitter, so they gift me with “tough love.” Like this man who emerged next…
I took the bait.
Then Steve started in. He stuck around until he told me to get lost, pretty much. But here’s how he began:
To which I replied,
Then got this gem, which I ignored:
And this,
I liked that one. Then got this,
I didn’t have to sit around deciding whether or not to reply to this comment. Outright misinformation needs correction, for the sake of silent observers. I said,
Jason Warner commented again, and he seems to be a super nice complementarian. Very kind and gracious.
And then Steve got back to me.
Does Steve run the Desiring God page? Did he even open the link? Marg Mowzcko’s blog is a highly rated Bible scholarship website.
Got these lovely comments next:
And these not-so-nice comments:
Steve likes Joye’s comments.
Had the conversation with myself again, “What are you doing here? Walk away!”
Didn’t listen. Things went downhill quickly from here.
Since I was making Steve nauseous with my argumentativeness, I let him have the last word and will leave things at that. I realize that I don’t have to attend every argument I am invited to, but it is a fine line figuring out when you are having a fruitful conversation and when things are becoming toxic. It’s not every day that I get compared to Mohamed and John Smith, get called entitled, bitter, grasping. I reject those words.
This comment thread was also a good reminder to me to watch my words so that I do not do this to others. It is tough to oppose a doctrine that I believe is inherently abusive without demeaning those who hold to it. How else can you describe a system that subjugates some under the authority of others due to one factor alone: gender? Not spiritual maturity, callings or gifts. Gender. GENITALIA.
Hierarchy in the Church sidelines the majority and celebrates the ministry of the few, the John Pipers. Their words have authority and power while others, who also have a relationship with God and have the power of the Holy Spirit within them, are powerless in the Church. It is not just women but also most men who find their God-given authority and gifts unused and unvalued in hierarchical churches.
We must also consider the epidemic of domestic violence and emotional abuse in the Church. Or the epidemic of gender violence, rape culture, sexism, FGM and femicide, financial inequality, objectification and sex slavery, etc., in our world. Let the Church be a force for the empowerment and honoring of women and girls! Let us heal the brokenness that patriarchy has brought to the world since the Fall!
Typing conversations is hard. It is easy to misunderstand and hear unintended tones. The moral of this story should be, love one another, give one another the benefit of the doubt, and if your gut is telling you to walk away, listen! 😉
Here’s a link to the comment thread on FB if you’d like to see how it has devolved since I posted this article.
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Posted in Ruth's Posts
Tagged be kind, comment thread, complementarian, Desiring God, Egalitarian, hierarchy, John Piper, male headship, theology, trolling